EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

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dequi
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by dequi » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:31 pm

zian wrote: I just donated $5 to somebody. lol
In the help file for the 0.5.0 Beta3 under contributing there is another account specified: donations@eventghost.net
I didn't see this email address defined on the domain however. Wan't to spend another 5$ to see where they go? :mrgreen:

Edit: it changed from EventGhost_0.4.1.r1534 (donations@eventghost.org) to EventGhost_0.4.1.r1540 (donations@eventghost.net)
/dequi

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by kgschlosser » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:02 pm

i wil add a paypal button to my signature. any revenue that happens to be deposited in there i will gladly donate to the project for things like upgrading and padding whomever is coding. because the way i see it is the person(s) coding and adding to EG the less they have to worry about income the more time can be spent working on the project and not worrying about paying bills.

now that being said. no one person should be controlling all aspects of EG. this is a foolish thing to do. but there should be 2 people that have access to everything at all times. no one can see into the future and if only one person has them and something happens to that one person then it becomes a problem.

but the load of who does what needs to be divided up. into 7 groups as not to make the EG project monopolize to much of any one persons time.

web / html
forum
finance (paying the bills)
coding the core
handling/managing/reviewing/helping plugin creation
documentation
systems/network

and this group of people have to remember that this project is "for the user" so anything that is up for change should be put to a poll on the forum. all suggested improvements should be put up at the same time. and you look at the poll activity to determine which should be done first, second, third.....

and go by route of what the poll answer is. but also read the posts and if a user has a suggestion about that poll item and it generates a lot positive response then extend the poll period and add that item to it.

again EG has been pretty stale in the development side of things for over a decade so slowly advancing and asking questions i think no one would mind.

also this really annoys the beans outta me. but if someone puts up a bug fix or a suggestion. and it's used. it should be marked or notated in the code that the change\addition\fix was from that person. a simple line comment and a forum name and date that's not at all to much. or even a separate file that lists the code file, line number and the users name and date with a "thanks" to that person. this means all the world to someone to know they have "contributed" and have been recognized for doing so.

but at any rate have a busy day ahead of me. have to shutdown the power to my house and relocate the breaker panel. computers will stay up and i will check through out the day if anyone needs anything. always here to help
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by dequi » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:53 pm

kgschlosser wrote:there should be 2 people that have access to everything at all times
agreed

There are currently 2 owners who control each a big chunck of the project but have a apparent lack of respect for each other.

Accounts owned, with full access rights, by zian
  • domain.com
  • godaddy.com
  • google Adsense
  • Paypal? (or wherever the money is going)
Accounts owned, with full access rights, by blackwind
  • GitHub
  • Appveyor
  • Slack
As long as they cannot come to a mutual agreement, this project is dead in the water.

I propose the following procedure, I hope they both can agree on:
  • both zian and blackwind put forward a list of 10 members ordered from most trusted to less trusted
  • their own name cannot be on either list
  • the members that appear on both list get scored by trust (first one gets 10 points the last 1 point)
    (so when a members is on top of both lists he gets 20 trust points)
  • the two members who get the hightest trust score get owner access to everyting (not just admin)
  • if there are not at least 2 members the same on each list the the first member of each list is chosen
  • If a member chooses not to accept the responsibility we get to the next in line
  • both zian and blackwind then have 7 days to give co-owner full access to all accounts to the chosen members, and explain (if needed how those accounts work)
  • the chosen members confirm they have and understand how the access they have been given works (can onboard other admins)
This way we have 3 owners of each account, so majority rules apply when decisions need to be made like adding additional admins to those accounts, and we have 2 owners that have access to all accounts in case of something happens.

The list of 10 members needs to be put forward within 7 days of both agreeing to the procedure.
/dequi

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by blackwind » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:25 am

dequi wrote:It would have been exactly the same case if you accepted the keys zian offered to you.
Let's be clear -- zian's just playing the social game here, saying what he needs to say for plausible deniability. He never had any intention of sharing anything with me. You don't completely change your mind from "yeah, I'll wait on that; anyone else?" to "sure, here's everything!" in 14 minutes.
I've been raised to interpret if someone says it can't be done like I don't know how to do it, maybe you do?
That's a fair perspective, and probably applicable to a vast majority of people. Me? I've been raised to say what I mean and mean what I say. When they're in the wrong position, sometimes, there's nothing you can do to overcome a difficult personality. Truly, it was out of my hands, and we'll forever remain at this standstill as long as zian's with us.
I Don't like the way things are going. :cry: Really hope you reconsider your ultimatum.
Alas, there's no reason to do so. Even if I were to completely disregard the disrespect, zian will continue to do everything in his power to stand in the way of progress. If I can't make the progress I want to make, there's no reason for me to be here.
dequi wrote:I propose the following procedure, I hope they both can agree on:
I'm afraid I can't agree to such an arrangement.

Pako and I are the lead developers on this project, and the two of us need complete, unfettered access to take it where it needs to go -- period. We can't have people who don't know what they're doing standing in our way, whether that's zian or whoever would emerge the victor of this hypothetical poll. Democracy is great and all, but that a small number of people think <person x> is really, really cool isn't a good reason for that person to be in charge.

I do network security and system administration for a living in a leadership role. This is my wheelhouse. If the community wants this project to move forward, I am the way forward. There's been a lot of silence in this thread from my fellow developers, and I completely understand that -- nobody wants to get involved in a street fight -- but time's ticking on this one. zian clearly has no intention of doing what's best for the project on his own, so if there's anyone out there who wants to see the rapid rate of progress we've reached under my leadership continue, now's the time to speak up before it's too late.
/bw

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by kgschlosser » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:55 am

i just think that 2 people need to have access to everything in case of some unfortunate thing happening. partnershit doesn't work (and no that's not a typo) and a democracy doesn't work either. well the USA's form of it doesn't.. If it's a system that works by popular vote and is actually followed out then i am all for it. I am not sure how the original developer handed over the project. if it was to just a single person or was it given to the "user" with a management team to keep things alive. and if it is the latter then the users need to be asked what they want to see happen. and that wish needs to be followed.

I honestly and truly believe that if an open source project as this is handled in a proper way with the right people working on it can grow. but with people fighting in open forum instead of some direct means of communication that shows the project is a complete mess.

i do hope that everyone is an adult. (figuratively), and understands that there are more people involved then just yourself. and fighting is not going to make things go forward. even if there are disagreements and there will be you have to remember to make sure the other understands why you disagree. and fully explain. but also listen to anything the person you are disagreeing with has to say.


everything has to be given a fair shake and explanation as to why something will happen or not happen. and always try to help and be helped. even if not asked. one person trying to do everything on this kind of a project is insane. and will lead to a mental breakdown or a breakdown in communication due to not having the time to "walk the isles" if you will. if there are 50 people complaining about something but don't get noticed then that is 50 people that will stop using and that 50 will tell another 50 not to use.

every single person that has a question or a problem needs to be talked to. even if you don't know anything about what they are having a problem with. because it's going to do 2 things.

make you more knowledgeable when you learn and read about what they are trying to do. but it is going to also inspire the hell out of you when you fix their issue and make you want to continue to work on the project. if at any point you feel that helping a "newbie" is a waste of time then it's time to take a break or time to step aside and let someone else work on the project.

and ya know something. it's much better to have someone that doesn't know anything apart of the team because they can be taught the "EG" way. this project has been stagnant for some time. and a little more time to brainstorm a plan and get a group of people in place that can make it happen is going to be ok. and teaching and learning is what an open source project is about.

better to take the time then to have a train wreck. and every single person on the project has to keep an open mind. and take the time to fully understand why someone else on the team wants something done a specific way. a huge amount of patience is needed.
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by zian » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:27 pm

kgschlosser wrote:i just think that 2 people need to have access to everything in case of some unfortunate thing happening. partnershit doesn't work (and no that's not a typo) and a democracy doesn't work either. well the USA's form of it doesn't.. If it's a system that works by popular vote and is actually followed out then i am all for it. I am not sure how the original developer handed over the project. if it was to just a single person or was it given to the "user" with a management team to keep things alive. and if it is the latter then the users need to be asked what they want to see happen. and that wish needs to be followed.

I honestly and truly believe that if an open source project as this is handled in a proper way with the right people working on it can grow. but with people fighting in open forum instead of some direct means of communication that shows the project is a complete mess.

i do hope that everyone is an adult. (figuratively), and understands that there are more people involved then just yourself. and fighting is not going to make things go forward. even if there are disagreements and there will be you have to remember to make sure the other understands why you disagree. and fully explain. but also listen to anything the person you are disagreeing with has to say.


everything has to be given a fair shake and explanation as to why something will happen or not happen. and always try to help and be helped. even if not asked. one person trying to do everything on this kind of a project is insane. and will lead to a mental breakdown or a breakdown in communication due to not having the time to "walk the isles" if you will. if there are 50 people complaining about something but don't get noticed then that is 50 people that will stop using and that 50 will tell another 50 not to use.

every single person that has a question or a problem needs to be talked to. even if you don't know anything about what they are having a problem with. because it's going to do 2 things.

make you more knowledgeable when you learn and read about what they are trying to do. but it is going to also inspire the hell out of you when you fix their issue and make you want to continue to work on the project. if at any point you feel that helping a "newbie" is a waste of time then it's time to take a break or time to step aside and let someone else work on the project.

and ya know something. it's much better to have someone that doesn't know anything apart of the team because they can be taught the "EG" way. this project has been stagnant for some time. and a little more time to brainstorm a plan and get a group of people in place that can make it happen is going to be ok. and teaching and learning is what an open source project is about.

better to take the time then to have a train wreck. and every single person on the project has to keep an open mind. and take the time to fully understand why someone else on the team wants something done a specific way. a huge amount of patience is needed.
I agree.
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topix
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by topix » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:47 pm

wow :shock: That makes me sad reading through this thread. I don't fully understand where the real problem is, but then i'm visiting this forum only from time to time and don't read all, so i may have missed something. I hope everything will turn out all right. Good Luck EventGhost :|

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by jachin99 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:02 pm

So exactly what happens to event ghost if these two can't get along? Is it worth using still, or is the functionality of event ghost itself going to slowly break over time?

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by kgschlosser » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:18 am

oh no no no. that would never happen. EventGhost is open source. so anyone that wants to can release their own "flavor" of it.

I am working on a version of EG see what happens with it. it's hard because I want to release somehting sooner than later. but I am also reorganizing things into an order that makes more sense.
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by zian » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:16 am

kgschlosser wrote:oh no no no. that would never happen. EventGhost is open source. so anyone that wants to can release their own "flavor" of it.
Exactly.
And this website and forum will be here for a long spell too.
At least till next GoDaddy Hosting Due Day... 2/25/2017
And years after that too. :)
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by WoLpH » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:28 pm

Let me chime in as well :)
While I can't say that I've been that active for EventGhost so far, I am definitely interested to help. As I've actually indicated before: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7382

Unfortunately a few things got in the way (such as writing a book: Mastering Python) but I'm still very interested in helping out and expect to have somewhat more time available the coming months. While I personally have no interest in leading the project, I can say that I am a very experienced developer and I have enough knowledge about server management and such to help out when needed.

As long as the code is on Github and at least somewhat tested I will be happy to help out. Since I can see appveyor builds at least some part of that testing has been fixed which is a good thing :)


As for the dispute between blackwind and zian, I'm not sure if anything happened behind the screens but I can't figure out how/where that problem came to be. As far as I can tell zian offered blackwind access to the godaddy accounts so I'm not how/why anyone would conclude that he (zian) doesn't like you (blackwind).

Regardless... I personally think several people should have access to all vital systems (preferably a number above 2) to ensure the safety and stability of the project. That isn't to say there shouldn't be a leader, but that's a whole different issue. I'm personally a fan of the whole BDFL system that Python has in place. As long as there's a good BDFL it works perfectly.
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by blackwind » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:13 pm

We've had our issues in the past, both publicly and privately, and he's confirmed as much here:
zian wrote:I shared the keys with him mostly based on attitude.
And that is the exact same reason I did not hand you the access to the website over a year ago or whenever it was you and I had this conversation last.
Again, he said what he had to say earlier in the thread for plausible deniability's sake, but never had any intention of sharing anything with me. If he did, he had ample opportunity to do so, and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. On the plus side for him, it appears the social games he's playing are working. Kudos.
/bw

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by WoLpH » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:21 pm

I see... in my opinion it doesn't have to be that big of a problem if not everyone in the team likes each other but if there's a leader/member type of relationship it would be a problem. So I do see your point there.

When it comes to choosing I would personally choose for the most useful/active developer since good developers are hard to find. And with that in mind it seems that you have proven your worth: https://github.com/EventGhost/EventGhos ... ntributors
I'm not familiar enough with the community here to make a fair assessment on who's right but for the sake of the project I do hope it resolves peacefully.

Having that said, I've seen similar problems with other projects (Sickrage, Hyperion, etc.) and it rarely ends well.
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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by blackwind » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:31 am

I appreciate the nod, but it'll probably be for naught if no one else is willing to speak up.

Ultimately, it doesn't even matter who's right or wrong -- the bottom line is, I'm doing everything I can to move us forward, he's doing everything he can to hold us back, and only one of us will still be here after the 15th. This should be as clear a choice as there's ever been in the history of choices, and yet, here we are.
/bw

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Re: EventGhost Roadmap: Ambitions and Goals

Post by zian » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:33 am

WoLpH wrote:Let me chime in as well :)
While I can't say that I've been that active for EventGhost so far, I am definitely interested to help. As I've actually indicated before: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7382

Unfortunately a few things got in the way (such as writing a book: Mastering Python) but I'm still very interested in helping out and expect to have somewhat more time available the coming months. While I personally have no interest in leading the project, I can say that I am a very experienced developer and I have enough knowledge about server management and such to help out when needed.

As long as the code is on Github and at least somewhat tested I will be happy to help out. Since I can see appveyor builds at least some part of that testing has been fixed which is a good thing :)


As for the dispute between blackwind and zian, I'm not sure if anything happened behind the screens but I can't figure out how/where that problem came to be. As far as I can tell zian offered blackwind access to the godaddy accounts so I'm not how/why anyone would conclude that he (zian) doesn't like you (blackwind).

Regardless... I personally think several people should have access to all vital systems (preferably a number above 2) to ensure the safety and stability of the project. That isn't to say there shouldn't be a leader, but that's a whole different issue. I'm personally a fan of the whole BDFL system that Python has in place. As long as there's a good BDFL it works perfectly.

There really is no dispute.
Just some hurt feelings and misplaced other feelings maybe?
Not mine.

Besides that... Great insight and ideas WoLpH.
I hope you stick around too.
Thanks for your input.
Ian
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